Do you spend time making sure that your marketing meets your values and beliefs?


In today’s episode, I am speaking with Michelle Mazure. She is the founder of Communication Rebel where she helps service-based business owners, coaches and consultants nail down their messaging and ethical marketing strategy.


We are talking about bro marketing today and what that really means for business owners in 2021.

Value Bombs:


  • Understanding what bro marketing Is
  • Why ethics play an important part in your marketing strategy
  • What it means to live up to your ethical principles
  • The pros and cons of deadline timers
  • Why it’s important to write down your values and beliefs
  • The difference between buying because you like a person and buying because of what they can teach you
  • The benefit of auditing your experience to tap into your expertise

It’s so important to understand that if you are trying out marketing and it is not working for you, it doesn’t mean you’re bad at marketing or you’re bad at sales. It really means that your marketing might not be aligned with your ethics or principles. All you need to do is refine your ethics and your message to make your marketing work.


Don’t forget to connect with Michelle and I to tell us what you took away from this episode!


Also, if you are interested in creating a second stream of revenue in your service-based business, visit to apply to watch our training!


Resources Mentioned:

Take Michelle’s Rebel Roadmap Quiz

Follow @drmichellemazur on Instagram

Connect with Michelle on Facebook  


Additional Resources:

Sign up for my free training >> How to Scale to Consistent 10K Months Without Hiring a Team 

Beta to Biggie Application

Subscribe to the Podcast

Follow Brandi on Instagram 

Follow Brandi on Facebook

Read Full Transcript

Brandi Mowles: Oh, man, today's conversation is going to be all about bro marketing. Yep, you heard that right? We are talking about bro marketing and you are not going to want to miss this conversation. So let's jump on in.

Welcome to the Serve Scale Soar podcast, the podcast dedicated to helping service-based entrepreneurs scale their online business to five figure months so they can soar into six figure years, your host, Brandi, is a wife, mom and in less than one year created a six figure business. And now she is spilling all her secrets. So you can too.

Brandi Mowles: Serve Scale Soar family, I am so excited to be chatting about a different conversation on the podcast than we usually have, and I brought on my friend Michelle and she is going to talk with me all about Bro marketing and what this means in twenty, twenty one and kind of identify like are we using Bro marketing tactics in our marketing as course creators or as service providers. So I'm excited to dive into this conversation. Michelle, but before we get started, how about tell my audience who you are as a person and about your business?

Michelle Mazur: Sure. So I live in Seattle, Washington, where we actually have some sun today. So that's very exciting. I'm married and I've been I always forget how long I've been married for. I've been with my husband for a very long time. I think that's part of my numbers, blindness. And I am a mom to three felines. So we have three cats. One is 13 and then we have a brother and sister pair that are Maine Coon mixes, Browdy and Addy and Brodies like twenty two pounds. So he's a big, big boy. And when I'm not playing with my cats, I like craft beer and television because really what else is there to do during covid.

Brandi Mowles: Oh my goodness. So one I didn't realize that you were in Seattle. Funny story is it is never rained. When I've been to Seattle. My best friend lives in Seattle and I always bring the sunshine with me.

Michelle Mazur: I had a friend visit me once and he was living in Hawaii and he came over here like during summer where the weather was perfect. And he's like, Oh, I could really see myself living here. I was like, Yes, because it's August, wait till November when we get the wind and the rain. And he's like, Yeah, I'm not going to like that.

Brandi Mowles: Yeah, it's so funny. My best friend's always like Brandi. This is not how it is. So funny story. OK, so tell us a little bit about your business.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. So my business is called Communication Rebel and I do messaging and ethical marketing for service based business owners and coaches and consultants using my three word rebellion framework. So I've been in the communication field. I realized I was doing a training yesterday and I realized I got my PhD twenty years ago. So I've been in the communication field, probably pushing twenty eight years now. And it's the thing I'm here to do on the Earth is to help really amazing business owners figure out what to say and how to get it into the world, because there are so many people who get a lot of attention because they're great at marketing, but their courses aren't that great. And I know that there are so many more amazing people who are just hiding in the shadows and messaging and marketing is how you get that out there.

Brandi Mowles: I love that. So are you. If someone were to ask, then in the simplest terms, would you define yourself as a branding expert, copywriter? What exactly would you have to give yourself a title?

Michelle Mazur: As I would say, a brand message strategist. Because for me it really all comes down to like, what is your positioning? Like, how are you different? In the three word rebellion, positioning is all about like a message other people can spread because it's really about the change you create or how you're creating that change and then figuring out like, OK, cool, I have this message that other people can spread. How do I talk about this? So that it leads people to becoming my client faster than before.

Brandi Mowles: I love that. I love that. That's so cool. OK, so I like what you're doing. That's why you're on the podcast. So I want to talk about this conversation of bro marketing. This gets thrown around a lot. This word, I think, and I think that I would love to hear your opinion. What is bro marketing?

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, bro marketing and how I define it is the use of psychological triggers and hacks to shut down critical thinking so that people don't think about is this the best decision for me or for my business when they're purchasing?

Michelle Mazur: And basically what it does is it eliminates our consent to think about a message and manipulates and coerce people into buying. And the reason that I call it bro marketing, it's not just because men only do it. Women are also bro marketers. It's really a wink and a nod to the patriarchy, to that top down kind of authoritarian way of saying, I know what's best for you. My product is what's best for you. So I'm going to just make you buy it, what is the fastest way I can get your credit card out of your wallet?

Brandi Mowles: OK, perfect. This is different than the bro marketing I was thinking. I like how this is going. I think this is going to be a very interesting conversation. Would you say then direct response marketing is purely marketing or is there ethical ways to do direct response marketing?

Michelle Mazur: Oh, such a great question. And a hundred percent. So I'm going to get a little like communication nerdy on you. So there is a communication theory that explains like how we process persuasive messages and helps us realize, like when are we going to think about a message, what conditions need to be in place and when are we kind of on that automatic pilot of not thinking and relying on things like scarcity and authority and social proof?

Michelle Mazur: And really, it boils down to two questions. And if you are marketing in an ethical way, you really want your client to know your potential client to answer yes to both these questions and those questions are am I motivated to think about this message? Am I motivated to think about the sales page, the social media post? And am I able to? So if you're using like a ton of triggers that can really put us in overwhelm, remember when we're overwhelm, we can't really process. We're not able to process this message. So when we're marketing ethically and really, we can talk a little bit about what ethical marketing is, but when we're more marketing in that way. Instead, we're focused on reasoning. We're focused on making an argument for why our product or service is the next right step for a person. We're giving people their agency to decide if it is the best next step. And yes, if there are naturally occurring triggers like you and I are experts, like we should be using our authority on our sales page. If something is truly scarce because it starts at a certain date or you only have the capacity to serve this many clients, then yeah, you can still use that. But it's in order to really enhance the purchasing decision instead of kind of tricking people into a purchasing decision. And it's a super fine line. And that's, I think, why your ethics are so important in driving this. But yeah, you can definitely be ethical in your marketing by giving people their agency.

Brandi Mowles: Ok, perfect. And I definitely want to dig into the deadline timers and things like that a little more. But before because I listen to your episode, I don't really know. I don't think I remember your take on it. And I definitely, from a psychology standpoint and a marketing standpoint, have a take on it. But before we jump into these deadline timers that are coming up a lot lately in conversation, let's chat about what is ethical marketing.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, so ethical marketing is it's not a strategy. It's not a tactic. It's a philosophy. So as a business owner, you develop your values. And from these values, you create ethical principles that guide how you filter different marketing tactics and your messaging. So, for instance, when I'm selling a product, I have three guiding principles. So my guiding principles are advocate for agency, meaning I know that you can make the best purchasing decision for you based on the information I'm giving you. Number two is that I follow the research, so I'm an academic. I can go down the rabbit hole and see, like, what's working, what's not, because human behavior changes. And number three, I believe words matter.

Michelle Mazur: And there's a lot of neuroscience that shows that our words actually impact people's bodies and brains. So I always keep that in mind and want to use mine judiciously. So I'm filtering all of my marketing and messaging through those three big ethical principles. And then what's interesting is, honestly, like almost any marketing tactic or strategy can be ethical when you filter it through your principles. So you might be in a webinar course and maybe there's a swipe file for an email and you think, oh, I really don't like this. I don't like how it's phrased. I don't like how it's making me feel. That is a huge sign that, OK, well, this might not be in alignment with your ethics, so how can you either change it or do something different instead of just blindly following that swipe file?

Brandi Mowles: I love that example because that's usually. That's exactly what your gut feeling or your intuition is telling you and really going with that. So my question is, though, sometimes as someone who teaches marketing to people and how to market their courses and things like that, there's some things that like may not make us feel good, but they're also necessary for our buyers to make decisions. So an example of this would be and this doesn't necessarily come down to the words, but like on the last day, sending more than one email. So, you know, when you're in a cart open cart, close situation on that last day of any cart close, you're probably going to get bombarded with a ton of emails because it is the last chance. So what's your take on that?

Michelle Mazur: Honestly, I'm fine with that. I think people really need reminders that something is closing because we were busy. We don't pay attention. And I am very well aware of that from a message processing stance. I know that we don't pay attention. And even like yesterday, I taught a workshop called Bro Marketing Overthrow. And then after I was done teaching, I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I missed this. And I'm like, oh, this is why you need to send more email. So I'm actually fine with that. And one of the things that I've seen recently that I know work well and I've seen Laura Belgrad of talking shrimp talk about this, is that giving people a way to, like, opt out of it?

Michelle Mazur: So, like, if you're in the final throes and they have made a decision having a link that will tag them like, yeah, I'm not interested in this this time, but I don't really want to stay on your list because I love hearing from you. So there's ways to do it where people can, like, remove themselves because they've already made their decision. So you can always think about doing that, especially if you're feeling uncomfortable with bombarding people with emails, like giving them the choice to say, like, nope, I want to be on your list, but I don't want to hear about this anymore.

Brandi Mowles: Yeah. And so I think where I was going with this and I love this conversation is where does this gut feeling go from? I can hear a lot of my students now being like, oh, well, Michelle said, because I have this gut feeling where it's not that it's an ethical matter, but you're have to step outside of your comfort zone and do something that doesn't feel like sending a lot of emails on the last day. Sometimes even with those links that we always tell them to include, it feels like, oh, but I'm bombarding people. So that's just stepping outside of your comfort zone when you're saying reading this. So my students don't use this as an excuse, what tips would you have for someone to be like, OK, there's a difference between deciding if something's ethical for you or if you're just stepping outside of your comfort zone.

Michelle Mazur: And I think it goes back to looking at your ethical principles. Right, because that's the filter, because I can say to myself, all right, if these are my three ethical principles and I'm feeling weird about sending all these emails, am I violating one of those?

Michelle Mazur: Am I like OK, well, I'm giving people choice. Cool. Follow the research. I know people need this to make a decision. There's tons of research that people need to be reminded and get out of indecision. And then finally they like words matter. It's like, no, I'm not like I am like I feel comfortable ethically. I'm I'm good. I'm solid. So that must mean it's something internal where I am stretching my comfort zone in this launch.

Brandi Mowles: I love that. OK, so let's back up now and I one hundred percent want to just clarify that you are not saying that there is a right way and a wrong way to have ethical. It's all up to what our ethics are as people and everyone's ethics, I believe change based on where they grew up, where they're from, their background. And all of that has to play in. So there's no I don't believe right or wrong in ethics. It's just what feels right to you.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. I mean, it's really messy. And an example I give is the social media app Parler that got taken down a couple of weeks ago. Right before they went down. I snapped something on their homepage which said that they have a higher ethical standard. And when I tell people that they're like, what? There was all kinds of shenanigans going on on that site, but they were very clear about what their principles were. It was privacy, security and freedom of expression. So they were really living up to their ethics. It's just like but their ethics didn't align with Amazon, who was hosting their website. Right. So as you know, it's interesting because as online business owners, we have to find people to work with who aligned with our ethical principles like, you know, 70 percent of our ethical principles, because we're never going to be 100 percent aligned. So ethics are messy. And the other thing, I could just talk all day about this part.

Michelle Mazur: The other thing, it's like that's why I don't want to tell people what's right and wrong, because as a former college debater, I can argue either way. And it really depends on your values, how you want your customers to feel, what's most important to you in your business, all of that, how you like to be sold to and marketed to, like all of that comes into play when we former ethics.

Brandi Mowles: I think this is such a great conversation because then even we're talking to service providers, depending on who you want to work with. If they don't follow in your ethics, you should be able to say no to that and feel comfortable with it. And this comes up a lot. So there was some people in our group that were talking about Planned Parenthood and if they should take a client or not and just like that, that's not a right or wrong thing that's dependent on what are your beliefs about it? Are you going to be the right person to even serve them if that's not part of your beliefs? And if it's not, that's OK. Like there is better people out there to serve them who that is in alignment with their ethics and their beliefs. And I think that I love this conversation because also there's a lot of tension right now. And depending on when this comes out, there's just a lot of tension. Yeah, it's very based on this is right. This is wrong. And I love this conversation of how is it right for us? How is it wrong for us? But that doesn't mean it's right or wrong for someone else.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. And, you know, I want to just say it doesn't make people a bad person just because their ethics don't align with yours or, you know, if you've ever bought a course and then you got in and you didn't like a lot of things that they were teaching, you can always go back to that course and strip out the things you don't like and take away the that don't align with your ethics and take away the things you need so that you can get some return on investment.

Brandi Mowles: Oh, that's such a great tip. That's such a great tip because I've definitely been guilty of doing that is opening up. Of course, I'd be like, oh no, this doesn't along with me and shutting it to finding those pieces. But I love that advice. But now I do want us to bring us back to this hot topic of deadline timers. So in my opinion, but I'd love to hear your first.

Michelle Mazur: Sure. It's so I was doing the workshop, bro marketing overthrow yesterday, and I have a case study about timers. And then I make everybody say yes or no, and it was overwhelmingly no with timers. And here's how I come down on it. It really depends. Right. So I always look at ethics in terms of risk as well to the potential client.

Michelle Mazur: So, you know, one of my clients asked me, she's like, I'm selling a thirty dollar product. It has a money back guarantee. I know that it sells better when there is a timer on the page and I'm like, OK. And she's like, do you think that's ethical? I mean, it really doesn't matter what I think. What do you think? And because I could see this argument for well, I don't want people to be in indecision over a thirty dollar product like indecision and decision fatigue are real. And part of being a good marketer is helping people make a decision, especially when it's like it's thirty bucks. Right. You have a money back guarantee if you if you made like there is literally no risk here. So I'm like, OK, that's fine. And then I can see the other ones like, well it's not real scarcity because if they get the ad again and they click on it, they're going to get the same timer. And so for some people it's like, oh, that's not truthful. And yeah. And so I come down like I'm you know, honestly, timers are not a hill I want to die on. And I think, you know, if it's really aiding and people making a decision, I in my personal opinion, they're fine to use, I think, for like more expensive things, especially like one on one work. I am not a fan of, like applying scarcity because I really do. If people are making a substantial multi thousand dollar investment in working with me, I am not the kind of person who is like, I need your credit card, I need you decide right now or I'm taking this bonus away or what are you like all of those kinds of sales tax? No, I want you to, like, go away and think about it, like make the best decision for you. Like, I trust you to do that. So that's my very long answer about how I feel about deadline timers, but. It's not a hill I'm going to die on one way or the other.

Brandi Mowles: I love this, but I think it's so important because it is like the hot topic all sudden out of nowhere. And I'm like, when did we get it so freakin upset over timers? But here's my take on it. Our number one value in my company is integrity. So hours with the deadline timer has always been they have to be the truest deadline timer that there will ever be. Y'all on our thirty seven dollars thing. There is no timer like I could care less if you buy that thing or not. On my membership we have open enrollment and then we have closed enrollment, but we also have an evergreen funnel. And the only way that we will run that evergreen funnel is with deadline funnel the company because that does it by IP address and not your email, not like this thing that resets and you are literally locked out until the next time we open up the doors to the program. And so we have people all the time that email us and they're like, hey, your training is not working. And we're like, we see that you tried to use a different email address, but this is tied to your IP. Like you are not getting around this thing unless you are like super computers. So that makes me feel really good about having the deadline timer. Yeah. Is it is like the truest of true. And then with our two thousand dollar course, I don't with a two thousand dollar course, it is a very short window that they can join us and I only open this program in twenty, twenty one. It will only be one time and then we do coaching calls. So it is a five day deadline.

Brandi Mowles: You join us, you don't. But the thing that always happens is people will email us the next day and be like, I missed the timer, can I get in? And because integrity is our number one value, we have to say no. We turn down like ten thousand to twenty thousand dollars in sales the next week after for people wanting to get into this program. Now, if they're in our membership, we do let them get in. But that's the only way. They can't just be on the email list and be like, hey, I missed the timer can I get in? And it's like, no, like you had that option. You knew ahead of time. And then we have this. And I'll be honest with you, all this has been because, you know, I'm all about transparency. I have a coach that is so ethical. I love her to death. She is probably one of the most open people that I have ever worked with. But I have been so stuck on this deadline timer for our high ticket program. And it's because technically, like the deadline timer ends and technically you could send me a message three days later and still get into our program because it's open enrollment. You're just not getting in with your cohort. And then we tried. But like, I'm thinking like, do we do bonuses? And it's just one of those things. Like for some reason, with this high ticket program, like this deadline funnel is really tripping me up because how can we be out of integrity, but also give people the space to make the decisions that they need. But I also believe that people need deadlines to make decisions.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. I mean, and what I'm hearing from you is like one of your big ethical principles is like truth matters like that is really going to guide you as you like, make these decisions. And I think you're hitting on this good issue, especially with our higher priced programs. It's like, yes, people need a deadline to make a decision, otherwise we will linger in it forever. But it's also we know that it's a bigger risk when it's a bigger investment, it's a risk of money. It's a risk of time. It's a risk of energy. So it's higher risk. And so that's why there is more of that struggle for you, because the risk to your potential client is much greater. But I think if you really let your truth value, like, guide you and your integrity guide you, you'll find a way to work it out and make it work.

Brandi Mowles: And I think that this is the whole dilemma we're having with this is I really think this is the dilemma that more people should have when they are creating their marketing, because too many people don't care this much about it. Where I'm over here, like on a marker board trying to figure out every way to make this right. And I think that's part of the ethical marketing, is are we even spending time thinking about what we're doing in our marketing or is it just copying, pasting what other people are telling us to do?

Michelle Mazur: Oh, yeah. And, you know, I would say preliminary it's people are just copying and pasting and outsourcing their ethical decisions to other people whose ethics might not align. I mean, I was really blown away yesterday when I was teaching and I was like, well, you know, you don't have to send this email if it makes you from the swipe file. If it makes you feel like crap or you can adapt it and make the wording work for you because you want people to feel good as they're interacting with your marketing in this turn of phrase, is making people feel like crap. It makes you feel like crap. And they were like, oh, oh, I can just not do that. If I don't, I'm like, yes, yes. You actually have a choice here and so I do think like especially I mean, I also think that this goes back to the idea that creating our own messaging and marketing, it's not for the faint of heart. And so I think that's why we just want the templates. We want the swipes because we have to think so much about like, what is my message here? What am I saying? What do I want them to do after they hear this? And then how do I make this completely aligned with my own values and beliefs?

Brandi Mowles: Yes. And I also think not enough people are sitting down and writing down what are their values and beliefs for their business. So that's what I always tell my students. I'm like, what are your values for your business? As soon as you get those, decision making becomes a lot easier.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. And then, yeah, because one of the activities I did with my people, it's like, yeah. What are your values? And a lot of my clients are further along in business, so they either know what they are or they already have them written down and documented, which was lovely. And then it's like, OK, so how do I translate this into something that I can use as a filter when I'm making these decisions and then it just becomes easier to market and also to create your message.

Brandi Mowles: I love this. So I'm going to ask you a question and you may not want to answer it. And if you don't, that's totally OK. Just tell me. I like to ask these hard questions. So what are the top three Bro marketing tactics that just annoy the crap out of you?

Michelle Mazur: Ok, no one authority abuse of your abusing authority as a technique. I my first interaction in the online world was I was taking this three part launch video series. I don't know what it was at the time. And the person teaching it, who's a fairly big name was like, oh, and if you're not actually an expert, you can just tell a rags to riches story and that establishes your expertize. And I'm like, oh, no, it doesn't. And the reason I say that is because I know that authority is such a potent psychological trigger like we were taught not to question authority. Know if you see someone in a white coat, you think, oh, they're a doctor and there's research that supports that. It's like, I can't question them. I have to do what I'm told. I have to obey. So that annoys. The crap out of me is like people not being straight up with what makes them an expert. And I'm not saying you can't tell a story, but your story shouldn't be in lieu of covering up that you're not really an expert and what you're hearing there. So that's probably my biggest one. The second one, I would say, is weaponized liking. And my friend Maggie Patterson calls us curated vulnerability when we share a lot about our self and a lot about our life to really form this well, to form a one sided relationship with our audience where they feel like they know, like and trust us. And because they like us so much and we feel like their best friend, even though they've never met us, then they buy from us. And liking is a terrible reason to do business with someone to make that decision, like, oh, I really, really just like her. I like her life style and all of those, you know, it's like my pictures in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris with the perfect hair and the perfect body like all of that is weaponized liking and I'm I know how potent that is to make people buy things.

Brandi Mowles: Ok, so that's interesting because I haven't thought about that. And now I'm like, I'm sure people buy for me because they like my podcast. And so where does this you know, like where does this draw a line between, you know, I you know, there's people I listen to like Amy Porterfield. I've listened to her my entire life. I love her podcast. And I would probably buy anything she puts out there just because I think she provides so much value and she's such an amazing marketer and she's a female that's representing us in the marketing industry. So where does this come from? I like this person, so I want to be like in their space, take their programs and weaponizing this.

Michelle Mazur: So it sounds like you like her because you also like her information, it's a valuable to you, you learn a lot from her and the fact that you like her personality is great and she's really friendly, that's just like the added bonus. And people like you said, well, people like my podcasts. Yeah. They love your podcast because you're putting out great information and they're able to grow from it and grow their business from it. So I think that's a distinction like when I see a lot of I mean, so I think the best example of this recently was Rachel Hollis getting a divorce. And she I mean, in divorce is painful and terrible for her. And I don't want to gloss over that. But she admitted for the past three years she'd been having marital problems. But if you looked on her Instagram feed, it was all happy, happy, joy, joy. And she was selling courses or experiences about how to improve your relationship with your partner. And so people were like, oh, I really liked you. I really trusted you. I thought that you were showing me this side of your life and it just wasn't it was all smoke and mirrors at the end of the day. And she lost a lot of followers from that and a lot of goodwill from that experience. So she was using, like, opening up her life and telling you, well, curating her vulnerability in order to sell. And then that was actually a mirage. So I think if you're buying because of the person versus what the person can teach you, those are two different things.

Brandi Mowles: I like that distinction and I think that's going to help a lot of my listeners. And going back to the first one, which was talking about the expert, because I just know my listeners and I know they're going to let this be an excuse if we don't clarify. So a lot of times we don't feel like the expert. Like even now I have like my Facebook ad course. Sometimes I like to am I the one to be teaching those? And I know the program gets amazing results for people. I know what I'm doing, but we always have that, like, am I expert enough to be teaching this? So let's clarify what you were saying around that subject.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, and I think expertize is one of those things that especially for women, that we kind of pooh pooh our expertize or think I'm not enough here. I mean, even I do it like I was talking about marketing and I've been in business for, what, nine years now? Oh, I worked in market research for a while. And then I was like, am I expert enough to teach marketing? And I'm like, oh, oh, my gosh, it's communication. Yes, yes you are Michelle. Oh, how much more do you have to prove to yourself? And so what I do with clients sometimes I have this like little exercise that it's based off the TV show Breaking Bad, where Walter White goes from like this mild mannered high school teacher to this terrible drug dealer.

Michelle Mazur: But in the transformation, he has this conversation with his wife about how he has really grown this business and he really owns his power. And then he's like, you think that someone's going to come knock on our door and kill me? No, I am the one who knocks. And I'm like, yeah. So what's your I am the one who knocks statement. Like, what's your education, your certifications. Like, what's your experience not just in your business, but thinking about the sum total of the different jobs upheld, the different educational experiences. You've had all of your experiences. What are your skills that make you excellent at what you do? Are you a great listener? Are you insatiably curious? How does your personality play into your expertize? So I always think about like Sally Hogsheads, how to fascinate or even strengths finder, like knowing what your strengths are that you're bringing all of that forms expertize.

Michelle Mazur: So if you're thinking like, oh well, I'm not a PhD like Michelle, I'm here to tell you you don't need to be a PhD or get another certification. I give you kind of audit your experience. You can really tap into your expertize and own your own authority. And really, I believe that claiming your authority starts with you like it starts with you saying like, hey, for me, it's like, hey, I'm an expert in communication. I am an expert in messaging, I'm an expert and ethical marketing, and I have the receipts for it. So here I am, world. I'm out there to help you do this. Well, right. So it's really starts with that inner kind of inner authority before you can claim it outwardly, too.

Brandi Mowles: That was beautiful. Thank you for the clarification and I will just share my least favorite bro marketing. And then we'll jump into our lightning round. OK, but my least favorite in my community will know this because I rallied against it last year, is that I cannot stand just numbers being thrown out without any fun. So like throwing up pictures of your stripe account but not showing your ad spend in your ad account. So I am a big proponent of profitable businesses. I want everyone to have profit in their pocket and I just don't think that that tells the whole story. I hear these people talking. They're like, oh yeah, we had a two million dollar year. And then I know for a fact that they've spent over one point five million in ads. That's a different story. And someone spending a million and running a 50 percent profit margins. Those are two very, very different stories for people. And so in 2020, the reason I came out with the income reports was not to flaunt my money. It was to talk about the difference between cash flow, revenue generated expenses, profit margins, and just to kind of bring awareness from this like six figure or seven figure. I'm throwing out numbers all day long with no context that we see every day.

Michelle Mazur: Yes, well, I'm giving you like a virtual high five for that. And I think I would add as well, you know what? I'm over. It's always that all results have to be income-based. And I'm not saying that that's not a good thing to show. I'm just saying there's never any context around it. So it's like, oh, my client went out and made six figures on their last launch. Like you were saying, it's like, well, great. And how much of that did they actually keep? How much of that was payouts in affiliates? Just because they had a six figure launch doesn't mean that it was profitable for them. So I yeah, like anyone who's just always like hitting the profitability without any context or like how much money I made or how much money my clients are making with zero context I'm always very suspect of because it is a very bro move.

Brandi Mowles: And I just had this conversation on a clubhouse and we were talking about like retention and stuff. And I was like, well, when does it become our responsibility on the sales page to stop only showing income goals? But our goal is always to show, like, hey, I was able to get the confidence I needed to do this, or I was able to hold two discovery calls like showing these wins. And because if we're only showing the students that are hitting the five and ten thousand, that means that's all we care about. We only care about success. If it's number generated, one for a lot of women, maybe just get in the confidence or getting on the phone with five people because third all day with kids and want to talk to adults, like maybe that's just what they want and that's success and that's OK.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, it's interesting for me, like one of the ethical case studies I gave yesterday when I was teaching was I had a client who they were on the precipice of having a franchise deal and being able to franchise their business. And they came to me because they needed their messaging done because their messaging was a mess. And you can't franchise anything if you don't have a message. So we did the messaging,it worked. They closed a multimillion dollar deal. And I don't feel comfortable saying like, yeah, do your message with me and make multiple six figures because like, no, they were there. They had everything else in place. It was the message that actually closed the deal for them. And while that might make a great case study, like having a little blurb on my sales page about that, don't feel comfortable with it.

Brandi Mowles: Exactly. So I love this. So this has been a great conversation. And I want to jump into some rapid fire with you real quick. And then after that, if you have any closing thoughts, I would love for you to share those. OK?

Michelle Mazur: Excellent.

Brandi Mowles: OK, so what is your favorite part of your business?

Michelle Mazur: Working with my clients and getting to have those, like, deep conversations about their business, their message, what they believe and really taking all of that and distilling it into a message that demands everyone's attention? That's my favorite part.

Brandi Mowles: I love it. OK, so tell me, what's the best piece of business advice you've ever received?

Michelle Mazur: You know, I got it from my husband. My husband back in the day used to own video stores. And when I started my business, he told me, what you do now pays off in three to six months from now. And any time I make an investment in the business or an investment of my time in the business, I always have that in the back of my mind that this is a long term play. This isn't like a quick win. Quick fix.

Brandi Mowles: Yes. I always tell my students if you're marketing today. You'll see it happen in 60 to 90 days, so I love that. OK, number three, what does success mean to you?

Michelle Mazur: Success means I mean, the first thing that pops in my head is a freedom like having freedom of time, freedom to donate to the causes that I want to support, freedom to go on walks in the middle of the day and really just create a lifestyle that that I want and, you know, that helps me thrive, helps my family thrive, helps my cats thrive.

Brandi Mowles: I love that. And going off of this, what choices has your business opened up for you?

Michelle Mazur: Definitely flexibility of time, because I worked in corporate for five or six. I was a professor and then I worked in corporate for five or six years. And I love the fact that I get to set my own schedule, set my own priorities. I like I love being in control. It allows me to make choices about where I want to focus my time and energy.

Brandi Mowles: And I know we talked about I love that we talked about on your podcast Human Design, but what is your Enneagram number?

Michelle Mazur: I'm a six.

Brandi Mowles: OK.

Michelle Mazur: So I'm six is are very interesting. We're very loyal, like super, super loyal follow people we trust to the ends of the earth. And we also worry about everything. We are the ultimate worst case scenario planners. So owning a business has been really challenging because it's like, oh, cash flow slowing down. I never going to get another client. How am I going to plan for this? So, yeah, it's interesting being a six on the Enneagram.

Brandi Mowles: I haven't met a lot of sixes, so that's interesting. That's what I was like. Oh, I love that. OK, perfect. So do you have any final thoughts, Michelle, for my audience?

Michelle Mazur: I think one of the things I would want to tell them is that if you are trying out marketing and it is not working for you, it doesn't mean you're a bad at marketing or you're bad at sales or any of the things we say to ourselves. It really means that that marketing might not be aligned with your ethics or principles and always that looking at the message and seeing if that message resonates. It's nothing about you, but it's really about refining your ethics and your message to make that marketing work.

Brandi Mowles: I love that. That was a great final thought. And where can my audience connect with you to learn more?

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, so the best place to interact with me is Instagram. I'm @drmichellemazur on Instagram. And please DM me tell me what you took away from the show. I love chatting with people on DMs and then you can also go visit my website. I have a really great quiz about finding your roadmap to exponential influence and growing your audience. And it's just a super fun quiz that will help you get more focused on your marketing.

Brandi Mowles: I love that. And we'll link everything up in the show notes and you better believe them. They will show up in your DM. My audience is highly engaged and I love that.

Michelle Mazur: Yay!

Brandi Mowles: Yay! So, Michelle, thank you so much for your time and being on the show.

Michelle Mazur: Thank you so much for having me. This is fantastic.

Brandi Mowles: Y'all. That was such an amazing conversation. Not just about bro marketing, but how can we add more ethics and values into our businesses that reflect how we want to live our life, who we want to work with and how we want to show up for our clients and our students and customers. And I really want you to take note, if there's one action item you can take away from this is that just figure out what are your core values? Do you have those wrote down? Because once you get those down, all your decisions become a lot easier. Like Michelle said, you can run your decisions through your values. And if they align, you know that it's a home run. And if they don't, it's a no. I know that that is way easier to say than actually put into action.

Brandi Mowles: But the only way you can get better at it is by creating your values and running them through your decisions through that. And so take what Michelle said. Go let her know. What were your biggest takeaways in DM me. Let me know. I would love, love, love to hear your biggest takeaways. This was an honest and real conversation, as always.

Brandi Mowles: And if you're ready to start creating a second stream of income and writing those sales pages and figuring out your marketing values, then go on. Apply for my program Beta to Biggie, which is going to teach you how to create a second revenue stream in your service based business in 2021 and beyond. So this program is for people who are ready to create that second income level with of course or membership. And you're ready to do it with a step by. Step roadmap, coaching, critiques and more head to and apply today and until next week, you all go out, serve your clients, scale your business and soar into that six figure year you deserve.

Thanks again for tuning in to the Serve Scale Soar podcast with your host, Brandi. If you loved our podcast, please be sure to leave a comment or review and be sure to tune in next time.

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Meet Brandi

Brandi Mowles is the host of the Serve Scale Soar podcast which is a podcast dedicated to helping service-based entrepreneurs scale their online business to five-figure months so they can soar into six-figure years. Brandi is a wife, mom and in less than one year, created a six-figure business.   Now she is spilling all her secrets so you can too.

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